Serous help? I think Sproul is a copy of Mark Driscoll. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp, Alkies drink because thats what Alkies do. I said on my blog that the TOPIC itself was banned, which I find detrimental to women who are in abusive relationships (whether marriage, friendship, at work, etc). Sproul was an advocate of Calvinism in his many print, audio, and video publications, and advocated the Thomistic (classical) approaches to Christian apologetics, less common among Reformed apologists, most of whom prefer presuppositionalism. Ive never read that before but it gave me goosebumps. Jack wrote: At some point, the alcoholic can drink huge quantities without seeming effect. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. The Bible is much more complex than just a few Scripture verses on any one topic, including the ones you have cited to justify kicking problem drinkers to the curb. It appears that the message is that if we allow someone to that has no intention of repenting to go on like business as usual, we are NOT helping the person and it sends the wrong message to others. Erm, first time Ive ever said this but Im uncomfortable with this thread. I had surgery Monday. So behind the times.). I say its ironic because you seem so terribly concerned about keeping RC Jr in his church, while your typical recovering alkie would say just the opposite. And some people have been at this for years, apparently, and have developed precision skills in defense of their agenda. You dont. Comparisons between yourself and Sproul are a little mismatched. She can correct me if I did. So for right now thats as much as Im going to say, at least until I can start to feel like this is a safe place. Also, time and again I have seen peoples opinions and ideas treated with a dismissive tone under the assumption that since the have suffered prior trauma then whatever they say or do has to be taken with a grain of salt. Im just saying that secular psychology or psychiatry or medications are not always successful or helpful in treating various issues, either, at least not for everyone. The record of his life, the record he created and boasted about in his own sermons and publications, the record he established boozing it up in front of his church members, proves that RC Sproul Jr has been abusing the booze for many many years prior to his personal family tragedies. On 6/2/17,SpinderellaSproulpostedSpinderella Sproul: Lessons In Spin With RC Sproul Jr. Having failed tomeet the legal criteriaof having his criminal case accepted by the Allen County Drug Court, RC Sproul Jr appeared on June 2, 2017 in Allen County Indiana Superior Court before Judge Samuel Keirns for a pre-trial status conference. Either way you need to stop putting words in other peoples mouths. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. I cannot even imagine that a church would have no means of church discipline at all, the world being what it is and scripture saying what it does. or an idolater, [worshiping false gods] It beat opioids for me. Then they really start talking. I can see why you loved him, faults and all. By then he was almost dead from liver failure and heart disease. That a pastor is a drunk, is reason enough for the Congregation to fire him. Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. What it did do is wake him up to his own sins and cause effective change immediately. It is also possible to have a guilty conscience when no objective guilt is present. Thank you for sharing your familys story with such honesty, and hope. We also have personal experience with RC Jr. which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; And I use the analogy deliberately, because it has just about all of the dead-end singularities from which no light can ever escape: Thats why a Guild Navigator is indispensable when folding space. Shes getting her information, plus a lot of spin, from RC Jr. May he undergo professional treatment and break free from what appears to be a terrible addiction to alcohol. Free Pass : Professional 501(c)3 Pastoral Improper Judgement Permit Provided? where driving under the influence is concerned, makes things patently clear. I needed that sort of help. Groups like Sovereign Grace Churches and others have a pretty broad definition of what they consider gossip. Do they criticize non-drinkers? In my opinion, when someone is refused fellowship in the church, there could still be close friends or pastors who keep in touch with this person until they change or refuse the contact. And I can picture her sitting there and not being intimidated or harassed, but I reckon it must have been like coming home around people who had been through hard times and come out of it with humble hearts and thankfulness AND love. But -I think you are over-selling non-church treatment. To my shame I must say that we have been weak by comparison. Im not uncomfortable with Barbs rules. to assemble a bevy of personal intimate liaisons, or A question: Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions, I think you are misunderstanding me. One or two DUIs is usually not enough. Velour said, Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. and me that she believes that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church and that the problem and H.U.G. Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. So I was only saying what the Bible says. I have an occasional drink, but honestly can barely muster up the desire for that, given what Ive seen. They will need it and find many facing the same problems that they are, or have faced problems that they have and have words of wisdom to share. There are, perhaps, one or two differences between Type 1 diabetes and alcoholism. Thats awful. I, on the other hand, enjoy a glass of wine occasionally. And here is the moderators response to Cortney: Cortney, your story is not an isolated incident. It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. I offered H.A. Mae wrote: Since yall are medical people, is alcoholism a disease? I took doctor-prescribed anti-depressant meds for years. Its a much more complicated issue than that. What is that about? To the best of my knowledge she does not have training in the subject of alcoholism. An alcoholic likewise has little or no control over his drinking by definition. The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall not want.jr.s book. The story that Friend posted about the love, care, concern, and inclusion that their church and clergy gave to a woman alcoholic member is a testament to the Gospel at work. Youve posted several comments about this and never mentioned that Sproul 2s church should get him into treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else ails him). This includes the situation mentioned in this blog about a clergy family with substances abuse issues, to the point of endangering others. And his family needs it as well for living with a problem drinker. Theres even less agreement on the extend to which an alcoholic is responsible for his behaviour whilst drunk. Are you speaking of recovered alcoholics that you know that support patriarchy? and me. Nevertheless, it is classically associated with lying and unhealthy denial things that are not becoming in a follower of Jesus. or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language] Sproul Jr. should be enabled nor that he should be able to keep his job. Great minds think alike! it seems too public and intrusive for most people, I think; the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. so ridiculous. Velour, much as I love you & welcome your comments here can you let this go please? Youve got some great insights. I draw the readers particular attention to Dees phrase: treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. The key part to what Deborah added was the addict has to want to be helped., Ill admit to being too lazy to scroll back up the page to read Barbs original comments, but I dont recall her asking for anyone to be publicly humiliated (?). Velour, I concur with what you have said. They also drive very slowly and deliberately, overcontrolling. You have my prayers. Perhaps the Serenity Prayer, usually ascribed to Reinhold Niebuhr, will help some of us: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, Who is even real and genuine in the body of Christ? Just before reading this entry, I saw Sproul Jrs Ligonier ministries piece about his disabled daughtera poignant testimony of Gods goodness in and through suffering. For myself, since I do not know the other persons circumstances, I have no plans to undercut what someone says by alleging that they appear to have been hurt in some way. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. You want to see anger? I wouldnt wish spiritual abuse on my worst enemy either. Some might call it being accountable. First off, I am not in a position of authority in a church, such as a pastoral position, so I dont see this as being relevant to me as it is for someone such as Sproul Jr who works as a preacher. I have noticed that you get stuck in a rut and keep going over the same thing over and over again, even though you know the issues have already been covered and logically and responsibly discussed. After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. Thank you, Jeff, for sharing your story about growing up in an alcoholic family. If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. I dont know if the various treatment programs ( CR, AA ) create new problems or uncover existing, hidden issues. But Im going to respond a little further. Alcoholism changes the persons brain. In time, this changes for the better. Many of us have suffered tragedies. So others will need to intervene who do care for him. It would be unethical for me to do so. Julie Anne gave you a good part of the answer. He has made some very poor choices, many of which have directly harmed his family. Churches frequently blow it on all of the big issues mental health, domestic violence, divorce, and sexual abuse because they remain unteachable and think they have all of the answers. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. Miracles happen. I know something about old tapes. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). I believe that the church, as church, needs to stay out of it. Julie Anne reminded me about the path RC-Jr took, after MY post previously. because when a person is educated in ethical and moral behavior, they KNOW what it is and WHY departing from it is harmful and hurtful, so they are able to grow in examining their own conscience and responding accordingly .. they are able to listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and make course correction before making ship-wreck of their faith, I think solid Christian formation is far more productive and healing than the miserable anecdotes I hear about of Church discipline which seems so negative and punitive and results in public SHAMING, something that is very destructive for any person, Christian formation is education and the root of the word discipline is that one learns . @ Friend:Yes, Please pray. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Tolerable and safe is probably the best you can hope for. John was born. The responsibility of a pastor/leader is FAR greater, not less. Being around others in a church setting may help resolve a need for companionship, but Im not seeing how it would cure somebody of a condition that would likely need medical intervention or the attention or professionals. They will not change who the man fundamentally is. A memorial service was held on Wednesday, December 20 in Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Florida. He promised, but when we got there and got my drink, I knew it didnt taste right. (And this is coming from me, who pointed out in one blog post on my Daisy Blog that I am confounded and disappointed that she and her co-blogger have prohibited discussion of codependency at their domestic violence blog.). ? This is so dangerous. For those of us who've personally witnessed RC drunk it came as no surprise. Muff Potter wrote: 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. NOW he is a chaplain and accountant for a senior care facility. He is still employed and has his children. The one thing we learned is that you cannot change someone else. Divorce would go beyond that to Its the end of the road., However severe the problem may seem, most people with AUD can benefit from treatment. Thus if one interprets RC Sproul Jr.s actions as not persevering then according to what they teach Sproul was never a believer. It is also worthy of note here that she was not a church pastor/leader who was preaching to believers from a church pulpit. In order for the body of Christ to function properly each Christ believer must follow Jesus Christ first and foremost. Lets discusshymens. You chose to believe your wrong assumption about Barbara and me. From what has been described here by people who know R.C. It didnt sober him up but its good for maintenance of the recovery. We dont know enough about Sproul to know if he needs inpatient or outpatient medical treatment, but neither is likely to work if he isnt actually interested in quitting. It was as if there was a cry from heaven, as if Jesus heard the words God damn you, because thats what it meant to be cursed and under the anathema of the Father. So these people have a high tolerance for alcohol, habitually drink large amounts on a regular basis and your first impression is that they may not be alcoholics? Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. You asked why my specialty was. Please know that I will be keeping R.C. From this description, Anne was not in leadership at her church, and she was not actively hurting others in the church, or pushing alcoholic beverages on others in that church to somehow justify her own drinking. Velour basically verbally abused me in this thread, which is on a blog about Spiritual Abuse recovery, ~ironically~. Changed lives. @ Velour: It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. Also, we know both vehicles were traveling at 60 mph upon impact. If you had to be stuck on a desert island with one of three guys, My mother would ask me the same question over and over. No one has said we shouldnt try. That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. So glad you came through it alive and well! I got the impression that several people from that area had developed major health problems. That was not my post or quote. I hope that you will encounter those like me whose lives have been forever impacted by this particular sin. Way too many comments here have nothing at all to do with the subject, which is RC Sproul Jr, a wolf in sheeps clothing who has destroyed the lives and faiths of dozens of people and families. 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Senior care facility that support patriarchy are not becoming in a follower Jesus!

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