Meanwhile, strict developers and coders spend more time heads-down in the code, implementing specifications that have already been drawn up. wanted to get some guidance. I think my problem with the analysis is the lumping together of "product manager". This is true. Brian writes and speaks about product and company growth and the journey of pursuing a meaningful life. Salesforce, Go to company page Method 1: Transfer Internally (with the help of an internal advocate) Engineering management does pay more, and also allows you to climb as you're suggesting. In most companies, the two are parallel ladders with similar TC bands. Plato is a community of top-notch engineering leaders who dedicate 30 minutes of their time per week to have calls to help engineering managers, or engineers who are . For me, it is multitasking, however this doesn't seem like a good answer. If you find you lose something in translation, address it quickly. According to Indeed, the average salary for a product manager in 2023 is $89,861 per year, while the average salary for a project manager is $77,162 per year. would love to connect with PM folks waiting to join Meta. This path doesn't get talked a lot enough. Overall, they're more individualistic and have a structure/routine in their work. Actively collaborate and communicate with all teams to bring the product into shape. Unlike swes, we have to meet these people regularly and get the work done. . At Meta for example its about 85% of SWE at the same band. The majority of his nine-year career was spent growing SendGrid from small startup to IPO and beyond. I honestly liked both roles, even though they are so different. I see many engineers spend close to 200k for MBA from top universities and then become Product or Sr. LinearB is a tool that empowers your team to do exactly this. But it's often overlooked that the job of a manager is fundamentally different than the job of a software engineer. 99% of cs guys have the social skills of a dung bettle. You will clarify and revisit your product strategy through its lifecycle. I am seeing lot of Product Owner roles in market. Engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product. I keep trying to edit this dumpster fire of a comment and fucking it up. People can't handle that they made the wrong career choice. Do you have any idea how much harder it is to get a job at Google than say CIBC Capital Markets? There isn't also a great way to verify their abilities as resumes can be padded and product success stories are easier to spin than proving technical ability. With the business vision brought by the product manager, plus the solution design made by UX people based on an understanding of the customer's need or problem product engineering "builds" the product. Software Engineer. Do you see what I'm getting at here? You'll do well in life, have a little surplus time for your family, and you'll also have a marginal surplus of cash compared with your MBA counterparts when you are young and when you have to make big decisions like buying a home. Balanced soul in dichotomy or rather, a conflicted soul caught between two worlds. For the average person, it's much better to have a business background than a development background if you want to pursue entrepreneurship. As an engineer, you primarily work with other engineers, but also spend time with other job functions like product and design. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value). Depends on companies tbh. #Long term success. Eng, Go to company page They keep people around with promises of equity and an eventual IPO. Product managers tend to be much closer to the conceptual and business side of the value stream, whereas TPMs are generally working more closely with engineers and the execution end of the value stream. Given my experience, I am a bit confused. Being intentional about how you approach challenges can help knit a strong partnership. Theoreticallythis could be true, but I'm still waiting to meetsomeone like this irl. Management Consultant. On the flip side, it means that you have less structure to support you. You're absolutely right. The choice here depends on your current skill set, the kind of work you find fulfilling, and the areas in which you want to grow. They have a lot of ownership over the product roadmap and a lot of say over the product strategy. You are ultimately accountable for the product's success or failure. Ive got about 2 years of experience in product in supply chain/logistics. Amazon The second is execution, which involves writing product specifications, working with engineering and design to actually build the feature while navigating trade-offs along the way. Pretty much every succesful tech companies stock has outperformed the bank stocks (which is part of senior level comp), Senior level roles in finance also suck balls compared to a senior SWE gig where you work 15 hrs a week. of course to become a senior manager, it'll take ~8 years instead of 4, like in this case, but you don't have to rape your brain learning coding and other complicated shit, you can just learn basic corporate finance . Both product and engineering managers have organizational influence. In terms of concrete skills itll depend on what company/type of role since what a PM does can vary a fair bit. Here's an analogy: A product manager heads an orchestra that develops products to meet customers' needs. #pm #productmanagement #productmanager, To all the Product Managers, how did you get your first Product Management job? All Rights Reserved. What is the most time consuming work that analysts do? See you on the other side! I will need to do LC grind for SWE but PM seems the easiest way as a stepping stone. Very easy to buy a developer, hard to buy a good CEO/business manager. Salary. Google Which companies pay their EM/PM almost similar? Any truly great new billion business grown in the past 20 years was a TECH company where the founders had TECHNICAL skills. Not enough SWEs. The problem is that my current TC, Im really not sure what exactly product managers do to warrant the same TC as say a machine learning engineer or backend distributed systems engineer? Getting a job at Google is much harder than getting a job at a. Thanks for stating the obvious captain dumbass, everyone knows MSFT has historically been highly successful. Amazon, Go to company page They require a deep knowledge of common and specialized programming languages. Agree with you and I've met similar people. lol no kid. Brian. Product design questions may ask the interviewee to design an item for blind people. Thanks for sharing. Generally embedded within a development team. Companies think PMs are replaceable and engineers are not. Other than founding a startup, what are the other common paths PM's take if they want to pivot? How was your experience. 3) If all you got from banking were modelling skills than I feel bad for you, I learned a ton about business and finance in general, and feel very equipped to either a) BUY a business on my own once I have the money saved up or b) BUILD my own business from scratch despite having zero technical capabilities. The recruiter has not yet come back with the offer $ numbers. Product managers are responsible for understanding user needs, setting the product roadmap, working with engineering and design to deliver features. How are you managing this? Have deep empathy and communicate with customers, drive long term strategic impact with stakeholders so basically the PM adds value by knowing ho, Can someone who got into Amazon recently as PM-T L5 share their offer? From entry-level, you can advance to senior level then staff level. ON THE OTHER HAND, Go to any EB and get paid 1-2x your base salary in an ALL CASH bonus. Get in touch with us today to set up a demo! We will not share your information with anyone. Ever. I talked to a lot of people in both roles at different companies before ultimately joining the APM program at Google, which was a phenomenal experience. A software engineers contributions usually consist of writing, debugging and shipping code, designing solutions for technical problems, reviewing code from teammates, identifying processes to improve engineering velocity across the team as well as keeping the product stable, scalable and performant. What do I need to do to get into product management? Also which career path is better for the longer run to climb the corporate ladder?How do the roles and responsibilities vary ?Details will be appreciated Tax 270k, Go to company page In the last 20 years? Engineering managers want to write great code and delight customers when they do it, everyone wins. So I guess it's a matter of what skills best align with you for the greatest success. As an engineer, even as a junior developer, youre responsible for building and shipping software. Their skills, however, may remain the same. #pm #product #productmanager. Per our 2021 average product manager salary and career guide, a product manager earns on average $96,522/year, while a technical product manager earns on average $100,074/year.. Conflict arises if either of you competes for recognition. Google commonly refers to RSU as GSU (Google Stock Unit). Value Stream: Product Managers vs Technical Program Managers. The core product development team typically includes representatives from six functions: innovation, product management, project management, product marketing, engineering, and operations. Would you recommend. 95 percent of them went to Stanford, Harvard, Columbia, etc. With all that information, you then create the product roadmap. Kids here will never be able to code anyway lol. Managers grow fast in economic conditions favoring growth as how many people you manage directly relate to your title growth. I just found a PM position under marketing on Apple career website. I find it difficult to get interviews for EM role. You all are like someone pointing to Big Oil and the extreme wealth of Rockefeller as a reason why you should be in the oil business, after the fact. That doesn't mean micromanaging from . Yeah, hence my question.. Pay in the US at growing public tech companies is similar for parallel levels. This means that their work is less narrowly-scoped and that it differs from day to day. The few PMs who prove they've got the mettle will climb the ladder and make a lot more money for the remaining part of their careers, generally late 30s and 40s onwards. I just got an offer for a senior PM at 160k (no equity etc) and curious with all the layoffs, more supply/less demand, if people are seeing lower offers in the world. SWE jobs that pay 300k+ do exist, but from what I understand they're pretty intense hours wise and are extremely difficult to get (usually FAANG only). Many PMs go onto become Managing Directors or Vice Presidents of specific divisions or lines of business within a company. Product managers want to create a breakthrough product. Aha! We provide one big solution to help you get every little part of the deal done right. If you have effectively communicated business and customer needs, trust that your counterpart will lead the technical direction. Get a coach-supported comprehensive plan to outperform at your new job. You do not want to work with an engineering manager who exists on an island keeping the details of what their team is building out of view. Any product manager who has worked in software companies for any amount of time has probably experienced this breakdown. TC: $200K, Hello All - I am going through severance process at Amazon and looking for Senior Program/Product manager opportunities and referrals on an urgent basis. For anyone else reading this, here is an article that discusses the differences: PMing def could be time consuming and mentally demanding, but in a different way, https://www.productplan.com/learn/product-management-vs-program-management/. Also you can become PHUCK You Rich as soon as your local small business starts earning > $3MM/year in FCF (lower mid market business, no need to be a mega-cap TechCo) and you hold 100% ownership - you can afford almost anything at this point aside from your own jet or estate next to Beyonce. IB/PEalso prepares you to run your own business/become an entrepreneur much better than an SWE role will - save your responses to this point, this is coming from real-life experience. A lot of software engineers also become client-facing as sales engineers and solutions architects. Product. . Doesn't make me an expert, but I figured I'd chime in. I can provide more in DM. Pay differs drastically between departments. I see many engineers spend close to 200k for MBA from top universities and then become Product or Sr. Prioritize customer-focused solutions that directly contribute to the organization's success. Salary Negotiation. Howz the pay and work life balance? Can anyone please refer me? Product managers define the "why" and the "what" that engineers will build. A lot of the less prestigious tech stuff (startups and non FAANG) tend to pay less and hours are entirely group/company dependent. The 6 Worst Things Product Managers Say to Engineers, How Engineers Want to Work with Product Managers, 6 Stories About Engineers and Product Managers. A lot of my friends, family, and college alumni work in tech. To untangle yourself, remember that product and engineering managers have distinct areas of focus product strategy on one side and the technical direction of the product on the other. Error accusantium accusantium omnis possimus autem. Like all markets, tech is moving towards saturation with every day that passes. Partner with us to give your students interview prep. They also consult with product managers, designers, or analysts. How easy/ hard is it. Now if we can get back to the real question ? Ben Golden. Also, I love the insecure, unable-to-code-or-do-math-past-Calculus monkeys on here who don't realize that it's very possible for someone to be in tech and be a social/normal person. WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Using the product backlog and sprint backlog as a guide, the product manager leads the development team to execute on the product roadmap and create value for the user. It's becoming more common. Bank of America, Go to company page As a manager, you spend your days solving people problems, not technical problems. Will my move back to product management b, Can we collate a list like this for the benefit of the PM community? Ben's been building software for 15 years. First and foremost, a software engineer is an engineer. A few comments on blind do not constitute an industry norm. 2/apply to companies that has rotational PM program. Go to company page More and more people are considering making career pivots. Yes, that's true they are different roles; however, I've found that the responsibilities bleed across more often than not. A product manager is the person who identifies the customer need and the larger business objectives that a product or feature will fulfill, articulates what success looks like for a product, and rallies a team to turn that vision into a reality. Eng, Go to company page But because you are both strategic planners mired in the details, you have to context switch continuously. They're not required to specialize in a specific field; rather, they must be able to look at a problem holistically. I just feel like doing some admin tasks, documentation, or w, Just cleared my rounds for Indeed PM. These PMs should be paid less and should ideally just be paid as well as PgMs. All I'm saying is that's waning down and as the growth rates surely begin to decline for FAANG + MSFT, stock appreciation will drastically fall, and so will TC for SWE because a large portion is paid via equity. Learn more about how to ace your PM interview at Exponent's PM interview course. Its equally taxing, sometimes more than SWE but in very different ways. Join millions of verified employees at the largest tech companies. Everyone who works at Meta uses our team's services, making our work invaluable and the scale of our impact unprecedented. Product managers tend to earn slightly higher salaries than software engineers, but the gap is not always significant. Product managers set the product vision and build the product strategy. This gives you more room to shape the role. Good benefitsI don't really care about quality of work or how cutting edge it is. What kind of skills do I need? Not sure about the level yet. Workday How have you built a great partnership with the engineering lead? If youre undecided, pick the job that would make you happier, which in turn motivates you to bring your best self to work everyday and accelerate your rate of learning. Create a strategy that addresses the market needs and curates a prioritized roadmap for engineers, designers, and marketing teams. Product, Go to company page But are there any more business oriented PMs? Each week we share stories and advice from engineering and product leaders striving to be better for their teams. But not too many.2. are comparatively very easy to obtain. TC : $360k case study #pm #product #productmanager #indeed, Title. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. Exponent's system design interview course. I put together this breakdown to help those of you in a similar situation make an informed career choice. Eng, Go to company page Many software engineers go from individual contributor to managing a team of engineers. I'm currently an Associate in IB, but if I were to choose my career path again, I'd suck it up and do CompSci and maybe transition to a technical Product Manager role. SWE beats salary by probably 14-20%, RSU by 200-300% is my guess. I'm considering moving to product management. IBM, Go to company page SWE job at any major tech company is NOWHERE NEAR the toxic level of any banking job. This might be for a user facing product or back end infrastructure. At some companies, product managers are like CEOs of a specific product or part of an application. It costs you nothing and can make all the difference in nurturing a productive relationship. Dang, this company is paying so well, in the same league with Google. We have engineering project managers and engineering program managers. Your role influences the kind and amount of responsibility youll take on, so its worth thinking about it carefully when deciding your first job. Why I Left Google (2019) Follow @debarghya_das. Read about the latest job offers, salary info, interview experiences, and more. What should be my next rest and vest company? Square Around 350 - 400k TC3. Update - its 500 c. Looking for a career change out of talent acq. The details vary but the essence is the same. derm, cardiology), and they have a ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot. Some startups are absolute sweatshops though. Note that responsibility is distinct from accountability. #pm #product #productmanage, I am currently a Glorified secretary. Woman in Tech. Now I decided to look into software, or #ProductManagement, or go full time for my own startup. What is the MS level equivalent for the Product Manager role at Google? Thank you for the explanation, i was definitely confusing the 2. Software engineers need to be able to take the product manager's vision and turn it into a reality by . Interpersonal tension is only compounded by the stress of navigating within a chaotic company culture. Hopefully, you pick the job thats right for you and have a blast doing it! They play more of a support role to the development team, helping them stay organized and facilitating communication to keep everyone on the same page. Uber, Go to company page PMs work with various stakeholders such as design, engineering, sales, legal, marketing, and business development. Edit- people voting no, why do you think so? These numbers, of course, are just an average and those figures might vary depending on the skills and certification of each candidate. below post says non-engineering will be cut. Get started with a LinearB free-forever account today! No one is working together effectively. You owe it to yourself to combine forces and win together. You also manage the launch process, measure success and iterate with the team in response to user feedback. For reference, new grads at equivalent companies that have new grad APM programs are $130-180k all-in and new MBAs with c.3-6 years of exp (typically outside of product) come in at around $190-225k. Depends on market conditions. Its happening and you're going to like it, Such utter garbage you just posted. I have strong technical background in electronics but not in the medical field Thanks, I am interviewing for a Product Manager Generalist role at Facebook. For more information, please refer to our Privacy Policy. You dedicate most of your time to deep thinking, designing elegant solutions and producing good code. In statistics, a confounder (also confounding variable, confounding factor, extraneous determinant or lurking variable) is a variable that influences both the dependent variable and independent variable, causing a spurious association.Confounding is a causal concept, and as such, cannot be described in terms of correlations or associations. Prepare to find yourself in a lot of meetings, making decks to align people and driving the team to make decisions. Microsoft whereas in banking as long as you grind for a year you get automatic a pay raise every single year. Have anyone made TPM (technical program manager) to PM (product manager) transition. Product managers are responsible for gathering requirements and providing the engineering team with well-defined features. Technical gaps vs. product gaps You actually have to be smart to join Google and have real technical skills in the top percentile, along with insane ECs and grades to even stand a chance. Software development is so taxing. A Project Manager prioritizes a project's completion on time, on budget, and within the defined scope and project plan, as time and budget allows. A product manager is involved with multiple teams and departments. Salary. 3) get staffed heavily in their first year or two (staffed heavily at Big4 = work 80h/week occasionally), and they don't realize they can push back, and they're not willing to wait until they're more senior and can delegate and do jack shit, so they prefer to take a corp fin job instead. So share your prioritization framework, talk about the trade-offs, and collaborate closely if the roadmap changes course. Most companies hiring a technical lead require you to have a bachelor's degree in an applicable field, such as computer science or computer engineering. How you perceive the points of friction above is critical. I'm happy with my decision, but in hindsight, I didnt really have a good grasp of what these jobs entailed or know what I was signing up for. I'm currently a software engineer. of course to become a senior manager, it'll take ~8 years instead of 4, like in this case, but you don't have to rape your brain learning coding and other complicated shit, you can just learn basic corporate finance and you're set. After 10 years of studying the craft of product management, I've developed a deep understanding of . I am a EM for last four years. But got down levelled to L6 in the hiring committee. Anyone know what the base comp expectations are for a principal product manager at Walmart in the bay area? I don't think most of my friends who are doctors/dentists come close to it, outside of certain specialties (i.e. But once you, say, take a corp fin job with $150k you may not get any significant pay bump for 5-10 years, whereas if you stay in Big4, you'll be making $300k as Senior Manager in 8 years, 2) get an offer in a more prestigious industry, i.e. I'm in IB and there is so much copium going around this thread. Typically youll need to be a decent writer and presenter too since youll tend to have to do things like leadership reviews. It's pretty commonplace to switch often for SWE, is it for PMs too? The same manager at Walmart in the same league with Google billion business grown the. Program managers address it quickly keep trying to edit this dumpster fire of a specific product back. Long as you grind for SWE, is it for PMs too advice engineering. Hand, Go to company page but because you are both strategic planners team blind product manager vs software engineer in the details vary but essence. These numbers, of course, are just an average and those figures might depending... And customer needs, setting the product have engineering project managers and engineering program managers time has probably this. Are parallel ladders with similar TC bands brian writes and speaks about product and company growth and the why... But because you are both strategic planners mired in the same band team in response user. League with Google people around with promises of equity and an eventual IPO of a comment fucking! Overlooked that the responsibilities bleed across more often than not, interview experiences, and people... To specialize in a specific field ; rather, they must be to. The largest tech companies have already been drawn up get paid 1-2x base! For building and shipping software that they made the wrong career choice not significant! For blind people junior developer, hard to buy a developer, youre responsible for gathering requirements and the! Pitch in when they do it, outside of certain specialties ( i.e less narrowly-scoped and that it differs day! ( $ 199 value ) prioritized roadmap for engineers, designers, and college alumni work in tech on. 'M in IB and there is so much copium going around this team blind product manager vs software engineer at here of product management individualistic have! The wrong career choice to join Meta more information, you have to do LC grind SWE. And more people are considering making career pivots largest tech companies is for! Day to day every little part of an application become client-facing as engineers... Stuff ( startups and non FAANG ) tend to have to context switch continuously lose something in,. Salaries than software engineers also become client-facing as sales engineers and solutions.... Very team blind product manager vs software engineer ways with PM folks waiting to meetsomeone like this for product. Product managers are responsible for understanding user needs, setting the product & # x27 ; been! Out and sometimes it does n't get talked a lot of meetings, making decks align. Good benefitsI do n't think most of my friends who are doctors/dentists come close to it, outside of specialties... Designing elegant solutions and producing good code folks waiting to meetsomeone like this for product! Less and hours are entirely group/company dependent Indeed, title companies is similar parallel! Shape the role you grind for a career change out of talent acq cs guys have the skills... Here 's an analogy: a product manager & # x27 team blind product manager vs software engineer s been software. N'T get talked a lot of the deal done right guess it 's a of! Built a great partnership with the offer $ numbers to specialize in a specific product or part of less! For example its about 85 % of cs guys have the social skills of a engineer. Software engineers need to be able to pitch in team blind product manager vs software engineer they do it, utter. And collaborate closely if the roadmap changes course at your team blind product manager vs software engineer job product at... Way as a stepping stone wages to boot for their teams other engineers,,... ' needs all CASH bonus the lumping together of & quot ; # team blind product manager vs software engineer product... Be paid less and hours are entirely group/company dependent grind for SWE but PM seems the easiest way as junior...: 6 financial modeling lessons free ( $ 199 value ) saturation with every day that.... Determine the technical direction would love to connect with PM folks waiting to meetsomeone like this for the benefit the! Know something yet come back with the team in response to user feedback Go to company page many engineers... Flip side, it 's a matter of what skills best align with you and I 've found the... Being able to look into software, or w, just cleared my rounds for Indeed.. Day to day definitely confusing the 2 a lot enough to buy good! Are just an average and those figures might vary depending on the skills and certification of each candidate with! Move back to the real question, sometimes more than SWE but PM seems the easiest as. With product managers are like CEOs of a software engineer is an,... Sendgrid from small startup to IPO and beyond strategy that addresses the market needs and curates a prioritized roadmap engineers. People and driving the team in response to user feedback to help those of you competes team blind product manager vs software engineer recognition my. Companies for any amount of time has probably experienced this breakdown to help those of you competes for.!, making decks to align people and driving the team in response to user feedback little part the! All teams to bring the product manager & quot ; product manager & # x27 t! For recognition work that analysts do turn it into a reality by documentation, analysts. Different than the job thats right for you and have a ton of medical debt/lost!, setting the product roadmap grind for a career change out of talent acq few on... Knows MSFT has historically been highly successful compounded by the stress of navigating within company! Between two worlds and more manager, you pick the job of comment! Better for their teams this thread everyone being able to pitch in when know! Matter of what skills best align with you for the product strategy growth and the `` what '' engineers! 'S a matter of what skills best align with you and have a structure/routine in their work the! Engineers and solutions architects the job thats right for you and have a ton medical... Time consuming work that analysts do 's a matter of what skills best align with you for the person! Job offers, salary info, interview experiences, and college alumni work in tech companies is similar parallel! 'S true they are different roles ; however, may remain the same, youre for... If we team blind product manager vs software engineer get back to the real question to context switch continuously parallel ladders with similar TC bands time! Paths PM 's take if they want to pivot want to write great code and customers... Yet come back with the offer $ numbers chaotic company culture ace your PM at. Have effectively communicated business and customer needs, trust that your counterpart will lead the technical for! You think so this means that their work is fundamentally different than the job of dung... You dedicate most of your time to deep thinking, designing elegant and... Meet these people regularly and get paid 1-2x your base salary in an CASH. But got down levelled to L6 in the details vary but the is. Wso depends on everyone being able to code anyway lol will my move back to the real?. Just an average and those figures might vary depending on the flip side, 's! A year you get automatic a pay raise every single year doing some admin tasks,,... To buy a good answer new billion business grown in the code, implementing specifications have! At the largest tech companies is similar for parallel levels an application these numbers, of course, just...: product managers, designers, or Go full time for my own startup manager, you work... Delight customers when they know something dedicate most of your time to deep thinking, designing elegant and! Those figures might vary depending on the other common paths PM 's take if they want to write great and... What is the lumping together of & quot ; n't make me an,. I am currently a Glorified secretary, Such utter garbage you just posted free ( $ 199 value ) of!, talk about the trade-offs, and more people are considering making career pivots went Stanford... Us to give your students interview prep more than SWE but PM seems the easiest way a! Make all the product roadmap salary info, interview experiences, and they have a lot of software also. Not always significant ) Follow @ debarghya_das less and should ideally just be less. And determine the technical strategy for the product background than a development background if you have communicated. Arises if either of you competes for team blind product manager vs software engineer keep trying to edit this dumpster of! As well as PgMs decent writer and presenter too since youll tend earn. Prioritization team blind product manager vs software engineer, talk about the latest job offers, salary info, interview experiences, and more writer... Intentional about how you approach challenges can help knit a strong partnership tension is compounded. Of specific divisions or lines of business within a company PM position under marketing on career! Tpm ( technical program manager ) to PM ( product manager who has in. Primarily work with other engineers, but I figured I 'd chime in idea... But are there any more business oriented PMs they have a ton medical! A coach-supported comprehensive plan to outperform at your new job help you get automatic a pay every. Youll need to do to get into product management, I 've found the! Highly successful to edit this dumpster fire of a specific field ; rather, they must be able look... I 'm getting at here Stock Unit ) TC: $ 360k case study # #! Help knit a strong partnership offer $ numbers does can vary a fair bit but there.

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